Reading Jonathan Swift's "A Modest Proposal" is always one of my favorite parts of any class on British literature. The guy is obviously insane; he has to be to be this funny. But what is he trying to tell us in reality?
Swift was English, but he was born in Dublin and lived with Irish people his entire life. He was an outspoken advocate of separation of the Irish kingdom from the power of the English crown. He was, however, the minority.
Given his affection for the Irish people, why would Swift write so gruesome an allegorical pamphlet?
What is his ironic message really saying?
Happy Thinking,
Mr. B
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This could be a representation of Greek Myth, when Kronos consumed his children in fear of them rising against him, or Biblical too, referencing when the Pharoh had the first-born male jews killed. England obviously feared the Irish, they were, in a word, beast. He mocks English culture, how primmed and arrogant they were, even when eating babies. Yeah... Get some.
ReplyDeleteWhat he was trying to say, or what came across to me, was that he used children as a symbol for Irish people. He was being sarcastic about the whole ordeal. So eating obviously represented repression.
ReplyDeleteHe would write such a gruesome pamphlet, not for show, but to make a statement. As you have written he was the minority, so if he had wrote it in a blatant manner people would not want to read it.
Not sure if this is entirely on-topic, but I ran across this commencement speech that has a lot to do with focusing not on the self. It's pretty much a wall o' text but it's a good read, with the best parts coming near the end. Take a look if you're interested, I think everyone should read it.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.marginalia.org/dfw_kenyon_commencement.html
I think that Johnathan Swift is brilliant for the way that he presented this pamphlet. I thought that it was very grotesque, out of the ordinary, and distrubing. The descriptive words that he chooses and the hyperbole throws you off to make you understand his sarcasm and overexaggeration on the subject. It was actually more interesting than I anticipated.
ReplyDeleteI thought the story was crazy. It seemed that he was saying that poor people are useless and contribute nothing to society. although, that seems half true, because in reality people above the low class never look to them for anything, without the low-income class there wouldn't be workers for many jobs. I'm not sure if I understood everything, but it was pretty interesting, even if it was on the crazy side.
ReplyDeleteA lot of great reflection. Luke, the link to Kronos is awesome. I didn't think of that angle, but you know I will now.
ReplyDeleteGreg, that speech is really great. I have it on one of the audiobooks I used to listen to when I drove to New Kent everyday. The book was called "Consider the Lobster" by David Foster Wallace. There is some interesting material in there, but for the most part it is worth reading.
Je Taya, the word grotesque is absolutely an essential motif in literature. It will pop up time and again. Keep an eye out for the ug-ohs. They usually have some incredible symbolic significance.
Johnathan Swift wrote 'A Modest Proposal' to say, "Ok, if we are not going to do anything reasonable, here's what we will do." He wrote in a very sarcastic way, but it really is a metaphor. He talks about eating kids, but isn't that what the English were doing anyway?
ReplyDeleteWell i would just like to make a correction, it was actually the "angel of death" that killed all the firs born sons in the biblical story that you referred to Mr. Van Vranken. But i deff agree with your points. I was throughly astounded at the thought of eating small children. You see, i would have simply killed them and chopped up there tiny, fat bodies and used them as compost :)
ReplyDeleteThese comments are so brillant!!!! And so was A Modest Proposal. I think swift wanted to slap the people of Ireland in the face by proposing such a extravegent solution for the poverty of such a beautiful country. The poor ran the streets villianously, without the help of their fellow Irishmen or their British Ruler. I know Swift wasn't truely sadistic, but rather irritated by the Irish's lack of independance and pride in their country and their people. Therefore, he tries to make the people stop and think about the ridiculousness of their life style through a ridiculous proposition. He wanted the Irish to appreciate their home and countrymen as much as he did, though he was a Britsh Man.
ReplyDeleteWhen I read "A Modest Proposal" I felt that Swift was attacking industrialization, and how it affects the poor and working classes. Essentially the factories "eat" the children, destroying their childhood, and often killing them, all in the name of capitalism and industry. Childrens' lives are sold for almost scraps while the gluttonous industrialists make hundreds. His work is a sacarstic stab at those industrialists trying to make them see the connection between buying their lives, and buying their flesh.
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ReplyDeleteWith Swift representing the minority, if he didn't exagerate and use a grotesque hyperbole little attention would have been given to his pamphlet. By utilizing a shock factor Swift successfully obtains an audience and an opportunity to elaborate his points. The comparison of the destruction of childhood to the actual eating of children is very interesting from a psychological perspective. Many famous developmental psychologists have argued that without the proper amount of time allotted to children to spend time doing living as children then they simply can not grow to be healthy members of society. To elaborate on Brendan's thought, by overworking the Irish children at such an early age society was thrusting itself into an unhealthy cycle of producing a terrible rate of poor and unhealthy members of society. By eliminating the right to childhood, society was in-turn destroying itself.
ReplyDeleteSorry, I had a typo in my comment. Please disregard the word 'doing' in line 9.
ReplyDeleteSwift made many excellent proposals to help better the poor Irish and to make their lives a little more comfortable. However, I think all, or most at least, of his ideas were shot down completely, and naturally, he would be a little pissed that the ideas he took his time to create were just tossed out with the trash. His response to the treatment he received was A Modest Proposal, which is basically a big “screw you, you’re dumb” to the people that didn’t approve of Swifts improvements for the Irish. The irony is that the speaker in A Modest Proposal is speaking as if his idea of eating children is no big deal really, and that it would help the Irish out. The main irony is at the end however, when Swift reminds everyone that his ideas, that were actually modest proposals, were shot down, so he figures that they were crazy enough to shoot those ones down, why not propose something more extreme and even crazier. Swift wasn’t insane at all, he was just a little angry.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Kelly in that if Swift did not exaggerate, his voice would not be heard. As Kelly said in her earlier post, the "grotesque hyperbole" attracts listeners. The children of today are the adults of tomorrow; if they are ignored, society will not grow to its fullest potential.
ReplyDeleteI also remember talking about this piece in class a while back...I probably should have posted something then rather than wait until the last minute...oops. I remember Mr. Bruno saying that Swift was attempting to get the public to involve itself with helping others in need. This involvement does not imply donating large sums of money to a cause. Swift wanted individuals to donate their time. The donation of time is appreciated more than the donation of money, for help with one's hands takes more effort, as well as shows greater amounts of care, than does signing a check.
I thought the whole thing was a bit eh. Eating the children of the poor is a bit drastic. It's a funny way to get rid of poverty, but I don't think it would work becuase I doubt people are really prepared to eat every poor child in sight. If I walked down the street and saw people eating others, I would immediately think "RESIDENT EVIL"! :)
ReplyDeleteA Modest Proposal is laced with sarcasm and irony that many at the time it was written probably couldn't understand. Swift was so disgusted with how people lived and overlooked those who were less fortunate than themselves that he wrote a completely gruesome pamphlet mocking those he despised and hoping that they would realize what they were doing to so many of their people. The upper class forever finding the poor to be a burden to their happiness. So why not eat their children? Swift's logic on why this would solve so many problems is almost convincing until you realize what exactly it is he's talking about. And then the part of morals and why it is wrong to eat babies, even if they're born to the poor, comes in. But that's a completely different discussion.
ReplyDeleteOkay. First of all, what an interesting class that was, talking about cannibalism and what not. Swift certainly used the shock factor to draw in attention.
ReplyDeleteI think he was definitely targeting the issues of poverty, hunger, religion, upper class selfishness, and the conflict between the English and Irish...just loads of stuff. Like what we mentioned in class about how the poor reproduce and cannot care for their children, but what is supposed to happen? Tell them to stop reproducing? OR EAT THEM! Through an extensive hyperbolic situation, Swift draws attention to his real suggestions that are hidden in the pamphlet.
Jonathan Swift shows us by being sarcastic , that we should get up and actually help the poor because most of the time we are trying to hide them and instead of illustrating them as actual human beings we try to push them a side and dehumanize them. There are so many ways people try to "help the poor" but those ways are to help us from seeing them and realize how they are really living. Eat them (not really), why not ,we are trying to get rid of them anyways.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed our conversation in class on this topic. In writing this Swift was thinking of the ungrateful people of Ireland that didn't appreciate what they were given and treated those less than them terribly.
ReplyDeleteThe discussion we had in class was a while a go, but I remember Mr. Bruno talking about how there are so many people now that think they're doing so much for the poor. They think they're so great, because they "feel bad" for poor people. Yet, they do nothing about it. They don't give money to the man on the street who is begging for it. They think, "they'll probably use this money for alcohol." That is not our place to assume that. One could have no idea what the money is going to be used for, but that shouldn't be the issue. It should be the fact that you were willing to give the money in the first place. From that point it is out of your hands. Swift seemed tired of people saying they helped the poor by only giving money as well. He wanted them to set some of their own time as well. That really shows you care about the thing.
I think it was necessary for Swift to use the metaphor of "eating babies" to get his message across. Of course I'm not okay with it and was grossed out when I first read it, but after talking about it I'm glad that's how he decided to present it.
Swift writes an outrageous proposal to open the eyes of the people as sometimes the only way to get a point across is to make such an eccentric ideal. It was sarcastic poke at some of the other ridiculous schemes that others proposed to solve the ails at this time. After all, nothing is a quick, cure-all fix that some considered possible during this time of social and economic uncertainty. There is clearly an issue of the vast number of poor people so Swift sarcastically said, hey I have a brilliant idea, instead of actually taking the time to correct the problem, let’s just eat the babies and alas! no more poor people because they will all have died or been consumed. So here at this point, the reader realizes the sense of commodity these poor people are simply being used for by the wealthy. All humanity has to do to correct such issues is take time and lend out a helping hand, instead of dehumanizing such individuals, I mean they are people too.
ReplyDeleteEileen O'Shaughnessy
Gabriel...that was awesome. Resident Evil...hahaha
ReplyDeleteyeah, sometimes we have to overexaggerate to get ourselves heard. Swift probably had written a lot of things before A Modest Proposal, and readers just blew it off. So what better way top get someone's attention than to talk about eating the poor's children. Hooray!!! Some people will go to great extent just get people to pay attention. In our day, what would get our atention? A catchy jingle? Celebrity
appearances or supporters? or the big one, FREE STUFF! Maybe, eating poor children was Swift's equal in his mind.
Gosh, I love these blogs.
Personally, I think Irish people are delicious! And babies are always a treat.
ReplyDeleteI think this pamphlet was brilliant, and I hope it offended a lot of British people. (the rich nasty ones) I bet some of them started reading it thinking, "oh yes, this is quite funny. I'm rather tired of the whole mess myself! What a jolly swell chap! Perhaps we should eat the babies, oh ho ho ha ha!" Then as they continued, I bet they spit they're tea all over the newspaper as they realized, "hey, this bloke's insulting me! And I laughed with him at the beginning! I can't believe I thought he was 'jolly swell"! Why he's made a mockery of everything I've worked so hard for!" That's the best kind of insult. The kind where the other person doesn't realize until it's too late that they've been insulted. I think that was the whole point, to REALLY get to those people, slap them in the face and tell them PEOPLE ARE DYING AND YOU'RE SITTING THERE EATING CRUMPETS! DO SOMETHING! And of course, our society could use a couple slaps to the face as well. People are dying, and we're sitting here eating McBurgers. For shame.
I think that being the minority as he was, he needed to make a sarcastic, even gruesome pamphlet so that people would pay attention to it. I think he mocks English culture and the babies represent the oppressed Irish.
ReplyDeleteI love “A Modest Proposal” to a ridiculous extent. Swift just took irony to another level. Using insane metaphors and vulgarity, he manages to both offend and educate his audience. It was definitely one of those, ‘so crazy it just might work’ ideas and Swift definitely took it down the crazy road. But he had nothing to lose after writing disregarded articles and throwing out constantly shot down proposals. He loved the Irish so much he was willing to risk his little bit of English authority for them? THAT is dedication in it’s finest form.
ReplyDeleteSwift’s choice of a blatantly crass and offensive technique showed that he knew his audience. THEY were the literate ones. The ones PRIVILEGED with an education. The type of people who you can say “yeah I’m talking about YOU, you not good sonofa-” to without actually saying it. God bless those underhanded, backhanded, between the lines, and implied insults because they tend to sting just a little bit more.
Mmmm. Babies.
ReplyDeleteI can't recall how many times this piece has come up even outside of AP.
Much to say, it has sparked some really interesting conversations in the other classes...
INSTANT FAVE.
I certainly did love his style. It was akin to Emeril's BAM. It's in your face and there's nothing you can do about it but cringe at my mighty insults. I try to promote this piece where ever I go, to be quite honest.